Madonna Esther

[Greg]

I know this is slightly risque (calling Queen Madge of the World We Call Pop an idiot) and could result in me being slaughtered and hung for treason but come on, this Esther thing really has exposed Her Highness as a bit of a muppet really hasn't it?

Surely she counts as an idiot?

Her next album had better be as good as American Life (although it looks doubtful) otherwise I'll be having some harsh words with the artist formerly known as Madonna.

Or is it a big joke that everyoen has clued on about and I don't get it because I'm only young? And not Jewish? Or Catholic? Or in anyway religiously inclined?

Anyways....

[si]

Esther?

Am I being deeply stupid?

[Greg]

I'm pretty sure it's not a wind-up. It was on BBC Breakfast news on Saturday so I assume it's 100% real as they're not exactly 'jokey' people (except that Ol' Dog Monaughan (sp?)) But yes. I don't think anyone else has mentioned it either yet, have they?

A bit twatty really isn't it?

Anyways...

[Mike]

As far as I'm aware, it's just a name she'll be using at her Kabbalah meetings.

As for her next album being as good as American Life - I'm hoping it's better. AL only had about 4 great songs on it, which is inexcusable after Ray Of Light and Music.

[si]

!

As in:

"Hi, my name's Esther and I'm a kabbalahist."

Or:

"Hi, my name's Madonna-Esther and I'm a kabbalahist."

?

[Greg]

When they showed her speaking about some religion shite (IMO) at a press conference the name was "Madonna Esther". I'm hoping that the -Esther inclusion is purely a replacement for Ciccone (i.e. no-one uses it) but I have a horrible feeling her name will become "Madonna Esther", as in "Here's Madonna Esther with Hollywood". I'm sure she thinks it's a fabulous idea, but really, it could push her credibility/sanity down by a few notches.

[audrey potnoodlehorne]

Guy has (forcibly) adopted the moniker of "Malichi".

Oh dear.

[Greg]

Audrey said:

Guy has (forcibly) adopted the moniker of "Malichi".

Oh dear.

Sure it's Malichi and not Mordecai?

A picture story Jamie showed me about Esther (by which I mean the origin of Madonna's name) contained lots of references to Mordecai.

[audrey potnoodlehorne]

The Holy Moly mailout claims it's "Malachi" which means "my messenger". When I Googled it though, the only other source I could find was Baboon Newton. Hmmmm.

I think they only plan to use the names at Kabbalist knees-up.

I still think she's a highly fabulous popstar, but should probably avoid drawing attention to her religious philosophy type shenanigans. Especially those based on the donning of red string.

[Devil In Your Car]

I just wonder what her poor dad makes of it all. For twenty years he has had to watch his daughter pretend to be Spanish, Hindu, French, Japanese, English and now Jewish.

(Tony Soprano voice): "When you gonna sing a nice Italian song and learn how to cook, eh?"

Quite interesting fact: Esther is the only book in the Bible that doesn't mention God. It is actually a cracking story, a bit like an Old Testament episode of Dynasty.

[imissmybed]

pop star name-changing is never a good idea.

lisa 'left eye' lopes changed her name to N.I.N.A in 2002 and look what happened to her.

[audrey potnoodlehorne]

Devil said:

(Tony Soprano voice): "When you gonna sing a nice Italian song and learn how to cook, eh?"

Quite interesting fact: Esther is the only book in the Bible that doesn't mention God. It is actually a cracking story, a bit like an Old Testament episode of Dynasty.

I've always found it kind of funny that Madonna is more into using Spanish/Latino language and imagry (not that there's anything wrong with that) than exploring her Italian heritage. In fact - correct me if I'm having a senile moment - apart from the Papa Don't Preach video and recording her Who's That Girl show in Italy, I can't think of any "Italian" type stuff she's done. And yet we have La Isla Bonita, the Spanish bits in Who's That Girl and the video for Take A Bow. Hmmm.

Is Esther in the regular* Old Testement or is it one of those rogue books that only hardcore religious peeps know about? *I'm not implying that something is "regular" if it is non-Jewish, I'm just too ignorant to know whether there's different versions of the Old Testement for Christianity and Judaism, because it's relevant to both. I never thought having atheist parents would disadvantage me in my Madonna knowledge.

And yes I am one of those people who thought that Jesus was British and that Santa Claus was his dad until I was about 20.

[agnetha]

Yes I know the Old Testament has something to do with it but why Esther? Why not another nice Jewish name like Miriam or Carole with an e?

I'd have thought that Madonna Madge Esther whatevershe'scallingherselfthisweek would be British enough by now to know that we immediately think of rude shaped vegetables when hearing the name Esther...

And if she plans on murdering covering classics like Bashana Haba'a then I could go off her very quickly

[Sparkle]

Audrey said:

Is Esther in the regular* Old Testement or is it one of those rogue books that only hardcore religious peeps know about?

Yep, Esther is a regular OT book. It's great. At university I did a module about Women of the Bible, and we learnt all sorts of interesting stuff about people like Esther, Ruth and Naomi.

I realise this is of no use in furthering your Madonna knowledge, but it's a cool name for her to pick. That is, if she picked it for a reason other than just liking it.

[kurtwild]

Aside from this religious business I would agree that Madonna is a twat.

Why? Because every mincer I meet squeals on about how much money they've spent to see her! Seriously, some bloke I never met before started a conversation with "Ooh! I'm so excited I got my ticket through today and I only spent £120 on it!"

WHAT?! Surely if she's religious and that she shouldn't be exploiting these special needs gayers should she?

[undisco_me]

Madonna can do what she likes, but this news has been out for months, I hate to break it to you. That guy (about the ticket) was probably boasting, or wanting a reaction: best to say "I paid £150, darling". Incidentally, mine was 75, but I'd hardly use it as a conversation peice with a stranger. For the new album, I'm thinking Mirwaise, but with some new collaborators would be essential. You sometimes need a bit of light relief, that's why a song like 'Amazing' worked so well on the album. Only her fans really seem to appreciate the last record - I think it's one of her best, for sure.

[kurtwild]

boybitch said:

That guy (about the ticket) was probably boasting, or wanting a reaction: best to say "I paid £150, darling". .

Why would I do that? My post was about how people who have paid that amount of money to see some clapped out old grandma who has got gazillions of cash in the bank already are cunts.

[jamie]

Sparkle said:

Yep, Esther is a regular OT book. It's great. At university I did a module about Women of the Bible, and we learnt all sorts of interesting stuff about people like Esther, Ruth and Naomi.

I realise this is of no use in furthering your Madonna knowledge, but it's a cool name for her to pick. That is, if she picked it for a reason other than just liking it.

People can see the origins ofthe name in picturebook form at:

www.coloring.ws/esther.htm

[Pensiero Bello]

The festival of Purim is where the origins of Esther as a popular Jewish name come from. Mordechai was her uncle/cousin (depends on what version you take). Purim's the best, all drunkenness and hamantaschen. S'why I love being Jewish.

The 'Jew FAQ' gives a basic and simple explanation of the story of Purim:

Purim is one of the most joyous and fun holidays on the Jewish calendar. It commemorates a time when the Jewish people living in Persia were saved from extermination.

The story of Purim is told in the Biblical book of Esther. The heroes of the story are Esther, a beautiful young Jewish woman living in Persia, and her cousin Mordecai, who raised her as if she were his daughter. Esther was taken to the house of Ahasuerus, King of Persia, to become part of his harem. King Ahasuerus loved Esther more than his other women and made Esther queen, but the king did not know that Esther was a Jew, because Mordecai told her not to reveal her nationality.

The villain of the story is Haman, an arrogant, egotistical advisor to the king. Haman hated Mordecai because Mordecai refused to bow down to Haman, so Haman plotted to destroy the Jewish people. In a speech that is all too familiar to Jews, Haman told the king, "There is a certain people scattered abroad and dispersed among the peoples in all the provinces of your realm. Their laws are different from those of every other people's, and they do not observe the king's laws; therefore it is not befitting the king to tolerate them." Esther 3:8. The king gave the fate of the Jewish people to Haman, to do as he pleased to them. Haman planned to exterminate all of the Jews.

Mordecai persuaded Esther to speak to the king on behalf of the Jewish people. This was a dangerous thing for Esther to do, because anyone who came into the king's presence without being summoned could be put to death, and she had not been summoned. Esther fasted for three days to prepare herself, then went into the king. He welcomed her. Later, she told him of Haman's plot against her people. The Jewish people were saved, and Haman was hanged on the gallows that had been prepared for Mordecai.

The book of Esther is unusual in that it is the only book of the Bible that does not contain the name of G-d. In fact, it includes virtually no reference to G-d. Mordecai makes a vague reference to the fact that the Jews will be saved by someone else, if not by Esther, but that is the closest the book comes to mentioning G-d. Thus, one important message that can be gained from the story is that G-d often works in ways that are not apparent, in ways that appear to be chance, coincidence or ordinary good luck.

Purim is celebrated on the 14th day of Adar, which is usually in March. The 13th of Adar is the day that Haman chose for the extermination of the Jews, and the day that the Jews battled their enemies for their lives. On the day afterwards, the 14th, they celebrated their survival. In cities that were walled in the time of Joshua, Purim is celebrated on the 15th of the month, because the book of Esther says that in Shushan (a walled city), deliverance from the massacre was not complete until the next day. The 15th is referred to as Shushan Purim.

In leap years, when there are two months of Adar, Purim is celebrated in the second month of Adar, so it is always one month before Passover. The 14th day of the first Adar in a leap year is celebrated as a minor holiday called Purim Katan, which means "little Purim." There are no specific observances for Purim Katan; however, a person should celebrate the holiday and should not mourn or fast. Some communities also observe a "Purim Katan" on the anniversary of any day when their community was saved from a catastrophe, destruction, evil or oppression.

The word "Purim" means "lots" and refers to the lottery that Haman used to choose the date for the massacre.

The Purim holiday is preceded by a minor fast, the Fast of Esther, which commemorates Esther's three days of fasting in preparation for her meeting with the king.

The primary commandment related to Purim is to hear the reading of the book of Esther. The book of Esther is commonly known as the Megillah, which means scroll. Although there are five books of Jewish scripture that are properly referred to as megillahs (Esther, Ruth, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, and Lamentations), this is the one people usually mean when the speak of The Megillah. It is customary to boo, hiss, stamp feet and rattle gragers (noisemakers; see illustration) whenever the name of Haman is mentioned in the service. The purpose of this custom is to "blot out the name of Haman."

We are also commanded to eat, drink and be merry. According to the Talmud, a person is required to drink until he cannot tell the difference between "cursed be Haman" and "blessed be Mordecai," though opinions differ as to exactly how drunk that is. A person certainly should not become so drunk that he might violate other commandments or get seriously ill. In addition, recovering alcoholics or others who might suffer serious harm from alcohol are exempt from this obligation.

In addition, we are commanded to send out gifts of food or drink, and to make gifts to charity. The sending of gifts of food and drink is referred to as shalach manos (lit. sending out portions). Among Ashkenazic Jews, a common treat at this time of year is hamentaschen (lit. Haman's pockets). These triangular fruit-filled cookies are supposed to represent Haman's three-cornered hat.

Purim is not subject to the sabbath-like restrictions on work that some other holidays are; however, some sources indicate that we should not go about our ordinary business on Purim out of respect for the holiday.

[kurtwild]

She should have just changed her name to "cunt" and saved everyone the trouble...

[agnetha]

Pensiero said:

Esther, a beautiful young Jewish woman

Madonna = Esther

beautiful - nope
young - nope
Jewish - nope, not really
woman - go on then

1 out of 4... Hmm.

[undisco_me]

kurtwild said:

Why would I do that? My post was about how people who have paid that amount of money to see some clapped out old grandma who has got gazillions of cash in the bank already are cunts.

Well I'd never pay that price, but the reason I payed so much anyway is because I have never been to Manchester. I couldn't be more excited, and I am not a fucking cunt. Some clapped out old grandma? Let's put your own "grandma" in a corset, hot pants and a pair of fishnets with killer boots, and see who lives up to that endearing image.

[drbastard]

Say what you want, 'old skool' Madonna is utterly fab and she is an icon. She's what every crap popstar wants to be. Madge or Kylie.

The fact she vanished for ten years and came back with Ray Of Light suggests her creative talent is not to be underestimated.

And I still say American Life is a fab album.

[undisco_me]

I have Daphne & Celeste to thank, for introducing to me the phrase "vintage Madonna". I like all her phases, to be honest.

[Bam]

Woah! This thread is like going to a really boring Sunday School. Madonna's alright I guess. Hollywood was really good but she ripped off some old guy's photos for the video and got righteously sued. In her face!

Also, why isn't she ageing?

[neonknight]

I think its best that we forget the Esther business and not it spoil a truly great icon. Ignore it like a bad smell.

When you start to question Madonna/Esther- just remember:

Into The Groove at Live Aid
The Sex Book
Dancing infront of burning crosses
Desperately Seeking Susan
Push the button dont push the button!
Her MTV speech in a beret (I drink astronaut juice)
Nothing Fails

[Storm]

Madonna is a bit of an idiot now. Nobody can argue that she's an icon, and a lot of her stuff is classic.

Bu American life is garbage, and this whole Kabballah thing is ridiculous.

She needs to bow out gracefully........

[agnetha]

neonknight said:

Into The Groove at Live Aid

I still have her Live Aid performance on video - to say it's slightly worn is putting it mildly. Fabulous.

If I was the age I said I was when I saw Desperately Seeking Susan at the cinema I would now be34 - ouch.

[Scruffy]

Storm said:

Madonna is a bit of an idiot now. Nobody can argue that she's an icon, and a lot of her stuff is classic.

Bu American life is garbage, and this whole Kabballah thing is ridiculous.

She needs to bow out gracefully........

But is she really an idiot? Anyone who can market themselves like she does, become as famous as she has and not revert to Michael Jackson territory deserves the benefit of the doubt. I don't see this sudden fascination with a religion she's been interested in for years either. It's her beliefs and personally I don't think she would be dim enough to leap on some fad religion. As for bowing out gracefully that's a tough one to call and I'd imagine there's a few years in her yet.

[Storm]

Scruffy said:

But is she really an idiot? Anyone who can market themselves like she does, become as famous as she has and not revert to Michael Jackson territory deserves the benefit of the doubt. I don't see this sudden fascination with a religion she's been interested in for years either. It's her beliefs and personally I don't think she would be dim enough to leap on some fad religion. As for bowing out gracefully that's a tough one to call and I'd imagine there's a few years in her yet.

But she is living off her past glories now.

Would american life have sold anything if she were a new artist? No.

And as for the Kaballah thing - she's used the image of the cross so heavily throughtout her career, that all of a sudden converting to a hardline jewish religion seems bizarre. To me it does anyway.